Great discussion at BesoMami about women clergy. How far have we come, or not?
I think we have come a long way. I also think we have a long way to go. The head of staff seems to be the stained glass ceiling. But are those positions more closed to women, or are women (especially those with children and a spouse who also works) less likely to seek out those positions?
pcit commented at BesoMami’s that the church she serves as head of staff is looking for an associate, and many people are hoping for a man for the sake of balance. I am curious whether churches with male heads of staff are as bent on hiring female associates for the sake of balance.
They may be. I just don’t know. But I’m cynical.
I do love my presbytery when it comes to friendliness for women—I call it my Coven for Christ. Lots of strong women. Lots of solo pastors. Though again, very few heads of staff. I am proud to work for one. In fact, she was the first installed solo pastor in this presbytery. I like that she recognizes the struggle and the strides, yet she doesn’t have a trace of bitterness. Many of her contemporaries are awash in bitterness.
And I am proud to have been called by an associate pastor nominating committee that received tremendous pressure to call a man. I’m told they tried, and tried hard. There were some finalists who were male. But the right person for the job turned out to be a woman. Go figure.
I’ve been pondering what’s next for me lately. Though I’m not really pursuing that, I do like the chew the fat about it. I’m basically content where I am. There are things that drive me batty, but what else is new? Yes, as a solo or HOS I would have more autonomy, but right now I’m happy with the devil I know. (The devil being a metaphor for the situation, not any specific person. No horns and pitchforks at Suburban Pres.) I work 50 hours a week or less, doing work I love, and my children don’t look quizzically at me when I walk in the door… “Have we met?”
Laid-back Clergy Pal is one friend who’s always encouraging me to dream big. “You could be a head of staff now, today, don’t sell yourself short,” which is so sweet, bless his heart, but he doesn’t get it. Even though he is a new father himself, with a seven-week old bald mini-Churchill in his house, even though he is as enlightened as you’d expect a thirtysomething guy in 2007 to be, he just doesn’t think about this in the same way I do. He just doesn’t. It’s not that I lack confidence in myself, though I find the prospect of being a solo or HOS daunting, and anticipate a rather painful period of on-the-job training. Maybe I lack confidence in my ability to find the right church, a place whose ministry is sympatico with mine. I should probably get past that before I even think about next steps.
11 Responses to “just how far have we come?”
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I think, and I know I’ve said this before, but one of the biggest blocks that I see is that we continue to see the associate pastor (the collaborator, the faithful servant, the one who works with the people “less important” like youth and ladies’ guilds) as “less than” senior pastor (the decision maker, executive, works with the important). And to me, that in and of itself is a form of sexism. It’s implying that the male model (solo cowboy riding off in the sunset, or captain of the plucky football team that could) is the good model and the other models are “also rans.”
I absolutely think more women should have opportunities to be head of staff, but I also think that we need to think really long and hard about why that continues to be seen as the end-all, be-all. It seems like we’re trying to mold ourselves to traditionally masculine models, instead of re-envisioning ministry outside of the “way it’s always been.”
You wrote: “It’s not that I lack confidence in myself, though I find the prospect of being a solo or HOS daunting, and anticipate a rather painful period of on-the-job training. Maybe I lack confidence in my ability to find the right church, a place whose ministry is sympatico with mine.” It is daunting; not because you can’t handle it… I feel it is daunting because of the frustrations outside of my control. I am serving as a solo interim right now and I do miss having colleagues on a day-to-day basis. You are right about the guys, too. It’s not that they aren’t trying to get it. Many of them are, including my spouse (also a pastor). But the guys have never had a sweet little old man leer at them and say, “We’ve never had a pastor that looks like *you* before.” Sigh.
You can see my stats at my place. I have absolutely no idea where God will call me next. It’s exhilarating and scary at the same time. I’m just trying to be faithful where I am right now, but I wonder if my growing frustration here is a nudge. I hope it’s not. I don’t feel ready.
My internship church (with a male HOS) was under pressure to call a female Associate, but called a man instead. Now they have a women HOS, and a male AP. You just never know how these things will turn out.
PPB, that’s true, though a lot of my interest in being a solo/HOS is the call to preach more regularly. (I say that even though I really am OK going back to once a month preaching rather than twice a month as was re-negotiated in December.) I’m intrigued at the thought of being a co-pastor with someone, or being part of a really dynamic staff. I don’t feel like I have all the skills I need to make that work without falling back on the Lone Ranger model, but I hope I could get there. And really I think that’s a big part of it—we don’t teach people how to call forth gifts in others, and besides that, it’s hard, so people end up just doing things themselves.
It will be interesting to see how women of my generation do the head of staff thing. I know of one right now (Hi Texas Clergypal!). My HOS really is an out-front leader, intimately involved with the details of life at Suburban Pres. I think she feels conflicted about that because part of her wants to be a collaborative, “give the ministry away” kind of person, but she’s just not. And why should she be? She developed her theology and practice at a time when people would have looked way askance on that. The whole “make it in a man’s world” thing.
Hello Reverendmother. It is your Texas Clergypal/ HOS. It is a very interesting discussion. Our Associate here is also a woman and we have some fun with the matriarchy. It certainly distinguishes this church from most of the others in the D/FW area. At some point, we hope to move beyond the “Oh you are the church with the two women pastors” label, but we have fun with it these days. The church is energetic and growing. I, myself, am someone who wishes to be better at sharing ministry, but do wrestle with my own power/control issues. It is part of my personality. I like being in charge. I always have. It is a “growing edge,” as one might say in seminary. I do have two small children, just a little older than the age of reverendmother’s kids. Right now, it is all working well. But a huge reason it works is because my husband stays home full-time. He will be going to work outside the home when our little one turns 4. So ask me again how it is all working then! Right now, hubby does the shopping and the cooking and the night-time duty (when there is any). My world will drastically shift when he heads back out into the working world. I’ll let you know how it goes…
I think working fulltime as a clergywoman and being a fulltime mom IS dreaming big!
Why is HOS the “dream” position? Definitely the traditional model of ministry. I still dream of a church where we are all called “pastors” and work together as teams…no Head of Staff or Associate positions…co-pastors together.
Maybe I’m just dreaming.
I work in academia. In the academic world, your title refers to your level of experience and the number of publications you have/service to the university. What would it be like if we called pastors based on their skills and gave them titles based on their accomplishments. So the person gifted in adminstration might be an Assistant because she was brand new and the person working with the children might be a full Pastor because he had been at it for a long time, and had accomplished certain things….
I know it’s human nature to want to move “up”, but I’m not sure our method works. I see too many burnt out seniors who used to love their old jobs when they involved visiting the elderly every Wednesday, but who applied “up” to get more money or security for their household…and then the uber organized type As who could so run the office staff, moderate the session, etc., but who are doing youth group because they haven’t been there long enough.
I know the academic system is not without its drama, but I wonder sometimes if it might be a model to look at….
I’m a little overwhelmed with leaving a job, taking on two new clients, and (at the moment) the mystery of why she thought pot roast would go with toddler bowls and non-sharp plastic forks (and why it seemed especially like a good idea during MY shift), so I haven’t read all the comments.
I also don’t have more than a minute to write this, based on the sounds of falling Mega Blocks in the next room. In that minute, I will say without rewriting for tact or unification of metaphor that it is not, and will never be, fair. You can’t play the old men’s game and expect to get fair results. The game favors the house, and it always will, for any given value of “house.” Pioneers kick things down and get excoriated for it, and gain at most an inch in the process. That’s the deal, and there’s no rewriting the rules.
They also gain the respect of the people who matter. That wouldn’t be the same ones who own the game.
Hitting SUBMIT without rereading–
I’ve never worked as an associate b/c I’m a terrible judge of HOS character. Did an internship with a HOS, before ordination, who seemed wonderful during interview process but he ended up being demeaning, threatened, insecure in the mere month we worked together. (He was on sabbatical for the other 2 months.)
Example: insisted I sit in a child’s chair at the foot of his desk and watch him work.
I decided from that point I could not be an associate. That, and the desire to preach more often than not.
It has been tricky raising 3 kids and serving as pastor. 7 of those were (supposedly) half time with my co-pastor/husband. But it’s hard. Our kids, though, are tough and have something many kids don’t have. They know things. They’ve seen things. They are tougher and yet have some spiritual life (still).
You will serve a fortunate congregation one day where you are preaching every Sunday and people will come from north and south and east and west to hear the Word of God. Count on it.
I am not an ordained pastor/preacher/priest, but I have learned a few things in the past 20 years about having a career/calling in what has previously been a man’s world.
BK (before kids) I took all of my own call, worked 5 days a week in the office and went four years without taking a vacation. It sucked and It was exhilaratingly wonderful. It was also what I was called to do at that time.
AK (after kids) I have done the full gambit of working 5 days a week down to my current 3. Everything is fluid.
Now, AK (after Katrina), I have thought/prayed and cried a great deal about what my vocation is NOW and what it will be TOMORROW. And, it has occurred to me, that men have gotten a raw deal for all these many years. Women are programmed for change. Our bodies change every month, every year and every decade. They don’t just age, they change to accommodate a new function. It is only natural for us to incorporate and embrace the passages of life and to allow our vocations to also move with the flow of time. Men have been forced to always strive for more status, more money, more influence and in the process miss the joy of what they are doing Now.
I don’t need to have a career like a male in my field, they need to have a career like mine.
just a note on how far women pastors HAVE come in the last decades.
when another suburban presb. church (not too far from the one where you serve) called its first woman associate (long after the sr pastor where you serve was in place), the following happened one sunday morning. the new female associate was preaching (not sure if it was her first time to preach or not). by chance, i was teaching a co-ed adult sunday school class that same morning. when i went to my car after church/sunday school, tucked under my windshield was a little homemade flyer w/ the biblical passages about women not being in a position teaching/preaching/supervising men.
because i had taught that co-ed class that morning i took it personally. then i looked around and all the other cars had been “bombed” with the same flyer, so i realized it was aimed against female associate pastor.
next i went through the parking lot and removed it from quite a few cars, hoping to remove it from female associate’s car before she got “bombed” with it after the last service was over.
we’ve come a long way, baby!
and i agree w/ you about the lack of bitterness in your sr pastor. i’ve rarely met a woman pastor not touched w/ a bit of that bitterness, but she seems to be an amazing exception. i wonder how/why. . . perhaps because peace and harmony seem to be at the center of her ministry and her self.